062_From Tobacco Fields to Healthcare Excellence: Lessons Learned with Jeffrey Simms

Guest: Jeffrey Simms, Associate Chair for Alumni and External Affairs & Assistant Professor, UNC
Host: Jarvis T. Gray, The Quality Coaching Co.

In this impactful conversation, Jarvis T. Gray sits down with Jeffrey Simms, a “rock star” in healthcare leadership and education, whose journey from North Carolina tobacco fields to academia is both inspiring and deeply insightful. Jeffrey Simms shares his guiding leadership mindset: always strive to leave every interaction better than you found it—a philosophy shaping his work with students, alumni, and healthcare professionals.

Together, they discuss:

• The importance of professional development and connecting alumni with future healthcare leaders
• AI and technology trends, workforce development, and improving access to care
• Real challenges facing rural healthcare organizations, and strategic planning for these providers
• The value of partnerships and not duplicating work—collaboration over competition
• Personal stories about overcoming early career challenges, imposter syndrome, and leading teams as a young professional
• Lessons on vulnerability, the power of lived experience, and always finding/including missing voices in decision-making
• Influences from family and pivotal mentors, and the vital importance of community engagement in healthcare delivery
• The biggest challenges and opportunities for healthcare leaders today, including workforce morale and purpose-driven leadership
• Inspirational advice: keep learning, know your “why”, and don’t forget to celebrate wins (and take vacations!)

Key Highlights

• AI & Workforce Trends: Emphasis on necessity for leaders to engage with AI, even if it feels intimidating, and making workforce retention/safety a top priority.
• Rural Healthcare & Strategic Partnerships: Discussion about supporting rural health organizations through strategic planning and partnerships with academia.
• Early Career Lessons: Navigating leadership roles at a young age, relationship building during difficult decisions, and the importance of including diverse voices.
• Purpose & Resilience: Advice on leading with purpose, staying curious, and remembering that patient care is at the heart of all healthcare work.

Rapid Two-Minute Drill

• Career Advice: Never stop being a student, and always carry a pen and notepad to ask questions and learn.
• If He Could Start Over: He’d prioritize his own wellbeing and take more vacations.
• Recommended Resources: Assembly Required podcast by Abrams, North Carolina Institute of Medicine resources, ACHE publications, and the power of reading fiction for balance.
• Looking Ahead: Excited to celebrate his son’s graduation, upcoming student successes, and innovative problem-solving in the face of healthcare challenges.

Connect with Jeffrey Simms

• LinkedIn: jefferysimms
• Email: jsimms@email.unc.edu

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Transcript

1:19

Hey, healthcare leaders. Welcome back to another episode of the Excellence in Healthcare podcast. I'm your host, Jarvis Gray, and today I am joined by the one and only Mr. Jeffrey Sims. Jeffrey, are you ready to share with our audience, the healthcare leaders? Yes, Jarvis. I'm excited about this conversation and thanks for the opportunity to join you. No, I appreciate you saying yes. And, you know, I'll be honest, this was long overdue. Jeffrey, I've had the podcast for a few years, and as I thought about this conversation getting ready, I was like, I should have had you on here so much sooner. So everything happens when it's supposed to. But I just want to say thank you for saying yes. It's all good, my friend. I really appreciate it. Trust me, I have been following you, and you are a rock star. We're so proud of all your accomplishments. So, again, it's an honor for me to be able to join you today. Well, thank you for that. But, Jeffrey, in addition to the high notes that we've already started on, I love to just add to it kind of the framework of our show. We always like to start with these high notes and would love to share a leadership quote or leadership mindset that guides you, but also share with us how do you apply it on a daily basis? Thanks for that question. So it's not necessarily a quote. It's just one of the practices that I've always kind of utilized throughout my professional career. And it's the practice, practice of always ensuring that, whether it's a conversation or whether it's a meeting or whether it's an organization, that I leave that interaction better than when I entered it. And it means just really being able to enter into conversations with individuals, not necessarily solving all the problems, but ensuring that we have a strategy or that we have some sort of approach to address whatever the issue is. And I think that that is something that's so important, that's applicable to every aspect of our, not only professional lives, but personal lives, is to really be intentional about the fact that you have an opportunity to interact with individuals or to interact with a person. And it's so important to ensure that you're leaving that interaction better than when you entered it. Now, that is the absolute definition, you know, for a podcast that's all around healthcare excellence. Imagine if every leader leads with that mindset of making every interaction better than they found it or, you know, better when they leave it. I love that mindset. To get us started, Jeffrey. And just before we get to this next question, I just want to give Our audience a little bit of background. So I was fortunate enough to attend UNC when I did my master's at Healthcare Hills. Go Hills. Yes. And so, you know, the, the experience that I had at UNC was well worth the money, literally. But that, that experience afterwards, Jeffrey, that's where you have just been again to me, an absolute godsend in your roles to keep myself connected with other alumni from the program. I follow you on LinkedIn. The, the things you post about the school, the support you give to the students and again to the alumni has been top notch. So I that again, Jeffrey, to say thank you so much, but would love if you could just take a moment from your own words to kind of walk us through your role and share with us what inspired you to support the healthcare industry, to support healthcare leaders and the way that you do. Thanks for all those remarks, Jarvis. You know, it's interesting. I am really excited about the role and I've been in this role now for 17 years, which just blows me away that those 17 years have flown by so quickly. So my current title is Associate Chair for Alumni and External affairs and then I'm also an assistant professor in the department. So my primary role is really the opportunity to engage with our master's students around their professional development and the opportunity for them to really kind of understand that this is just not an academic exercise, but it's also about them being serious about their career. And so that is where I spend the majority of my time. And then the other half of my time is spent really trying to engage alumni, really kind of keeping them connected because I think that those are opportunities and ways for alumni to give back to our department and to our school by getting them engaged in ways that are not solely around fundraising, but around, you know, giving of their time and giving of their talents and being able to be engaged and involved in things like mentorship and really being able to let students get a chance to connect with rock stars like yourself who are doing impactful boots on the ground healthcare sort of work. And so getting students to really kind of understand that there is so much out there in the healthcare space that they can get engaged in. And it's not about being tunnel visioned, but really opening yourselves up to see what the various opportunities are that they can explore. So on a day to day basis, I get an opportunity to teach some students, our residential master students, and then the opportunity to really kind of talk with students one on one who are pursuing a Master's of Healthcare administration and they come and sit down with Me. And we talk through what their interests are and begin charting what that path should look like. But it also gives me an opportunity to really kind of to work with them to identify, okay, well, what are your strengths? What are your opportunities for improvement? What are the ways that you can really kind of think through what this career path should look like for you? I mean, did you work prior to coming to graduate school? If so, when you look back and reflect upon that work experience, what were the things that you want to continue to have in a job, but what are the things you learned that you really don't want to have in a job? And so I think those are some important sort of assessments that students should take and individuals should take. And what I've learned, Jarvis, over the years is those sorts of assessments are not only appropriate for students, but they're appropriate for people who are in their career. I think there are always junctures or places or pivots in our careers where individuals should take the time to do that sort of internal assessment and start saying, what have I enjoyed about this particular job or this role or this organization, and what have I not enjoyed about it? And what are some things that you can do differently, whether it's remaining in that role or remaining in that organization, but what are the opportunities for improvement that are available to you? So that's kind of a summary of what I get to do. Prior to joining faculty 17 years ago, I came from more of the health and human services sort of career path. I was the assistant director of the North Carolina Medicaid Program and then also deputy director of the North Carolina Office of Rural Health. So I really came from more of a health and human services, public government facing, focused job, and loved it. Senior leadership in that role. It afforded me the opportunity to then be supportive of some of the most vulnerable citizens of North Carolina all across the state. And it gave me a chance to visit some communities similar to the one I grew up in in rural eastern North Carolina. So I really feel like that's kind of informed my lens in the role that I'm currently in now. That. That is great to hear. And, you know, it's funny, Jeffrey, as you shared the back end of your. Your experience there, I'm over here trying to, like, imagine a world where Jeffrey didn't work at unc. Like, I was like, I never talked to you about your life before unc. Yeah, man. I'm an eastern North Carolina grown. Grew up in eastern North Carolina, actually in tobacco fields. My father. My parents were sharecroppers and so sharecroppers who were determined that they would break the cycle for their children. And so my father had an eighth grade education. My mother graduated from high school, and they worked hard and instilled amazing work ethic into me and my siblings. But they also were determined that this would not be something that we would continue. And so they broke the cycle because my grandfather had been a sharecropper, and then dad became a sharecropper, being the oldest of of 12 siblings. And so that's why he never moved beyond the eighth grade. But dad decided, and mom, they were determined that all four of us would be college educated and that that would be the change that would happen in our lives. And so I owe. And my siblings, we owe so much to those amazing people, Steve and Louise Sims. Now you just got me over here loving you even more than I appreciate you sharing again that extra story. And I think those extra insights, I mean, when I say why I love doing this podcast again, I've known you for a number of years now, but I never knew that. And just to learn that about you, but to also share with our audience of healthcare leaders that are gonna check this episode out. You know, I'm honored you shared that with me. You know, Jarvis, I'm glad you're giving me space to share that, because I think, you know, when I show up and whether it's on a podcast or whether it's in the classroom or whether it's in a meeting with alumni or with a meeting with senior leaders in health care, I show up with Steve and Louise Sims. That's my lived experience. That's who I am. And so that sort of perspective, I think, is so important to us as leaders is to embrace what our lived experiences are and to be able to then be vulnerable enough to share those and to bring those to discussions and to bring that lens to how you approach the various sort of issues or conversations or projects that you're working on. And so as I've aged a little bit, you know, I'm getting. Getting a little older now because now people always invited me to be a senior advisor or a senior or something. And even you've been alluding to some of that, but I'm getting older now, and I'm learning the value that I think it is so important. And, you know, one of the things that I'm realizing is I wish I had embraced that even earlier in my career to then understand that that although it may not have been textbook or it may not have been academic, but what that did for me is it's given me a lens that's enabled me to approach everything that I do in my professional and personal life. Fantastic. Oh, man. If we stop this conversation right now, Jeffrey, it'd be well worth it. Thank you, man. You know, this next question again, I think this next question is going to be really unique given your position and your station in life right now. But we know healthcare is ever evolving right now. It feels like it's evolving faster than ever before in my years. But just from your seat in the healthcare industry, what's a major trend right now that you feel is a game changer for healthcare leaders to have on their radar? Yeah, you know, the immediate one. And I think we, even though I am a dinosaur, I mean, when it comes to things like technology, there's no way, I think a healthcare leader can say that there are priorities without including AI. I mean, I think that that has to be top of the list. But to be honest, I can't give you any sort of knowledge in that space because I'm the one who has been kicking and screaming and like, no, I'm not going to explore it, but I know that I'm already interact with it and not realizing it. But anyway, so. But I would say there's no way that a leader cannot have some sort of knowledge or understanding of AI. But when I think of other topics, you know, I think it is clearly related to workforce, you know, and I think it's so important for healthcare leaders to really think through the various aspects of workforce and really how do you develop it, how do you retain, how do you recruit, how do you ensure that you are able to create an environment where your workforce feels that they can thrive in the space that they're in, but also feel psychologically safe? I mean, I think that there was a period of time where we never would have thought of our healthcare organizations being places that were not safe places. The whole sort of workforce violence piece that we're seeing this happening in the healthcare space are things that I think healthcare leaders have gotta have as a priority because you've gotta be able to ensure that your team members are able to thrive in the space that they're in. And so I think workforce is another priority that all healthcare leaders have got to keep on their radar. And then the final one that I think is important for healthcare leaders to have is just the whole sort of strategies around improving access to care. Especially now with the barriers that we know will come as a result of some of the recent administration changes that will be Coming down the pike in the next couple of years. I think we've got to figure out strategies around how do we ensure that there is access to health care and ways that we will have to fill those gaps. That some of the limitations that will come with not being able to have Medicaid expansion for states like North Carolina. How do you how we're going to still ensure that those population for us, that's six hundred and some thousand people who will immediately be dropped off the rolls for Medicaid once this goes into effect. And so really thinking through and being creative and being innovative around how do we ensure access to healthcare. All right, fantastic. Well, let me kind of touch on some of those really quickly. So you shared AI even though you and all your dinosaur wisdom. I was crazy. Don't ask me a question about it. No. I guess I am curious though, UNC being an exceptional educational institute, have you guys started doing anything AI specific in the curriculum? I'm just curious. A good question. Yes, we have. So again, of course they don't ask me for any sort of input into that because they know I'd be looking at them side eye. Let's just make sure you're not walking around calling it a one. True. Thank you for that, Jarvis. You're making me feel good, man. So yes, there are actually a couple of initiatives that are happening specifically here in the school. We have a center that is focused on AI and so we're excited about that. It's just received funding and so the leadership with that is really trying to begin strategies around ways that it will be applicable to the broader public health space. Then of course department being the Health Policy Management department, of course will be contributing from that perspective. And then the University of Courses through the center for Faculty Excellence has offered sort of tutorials and things for faculty to understand. How do you set parameters in regards to students engagement of AI, but then also how do you use it to your advantage? How do you ensure that it's something that makes you more efficient and more effective and the best use of your time and resources. So yeah, there are plenty of initiatives that are going on with that. And if I'm not mistaken, I think I read something where the Chancellor has AI, of course as one of its one of the top priorities for the broader university. Okay, good stuff. And I'm guessing that's probably a trend that many of the top universities are going to obviously follow suit on and to speak on workforce access to care. Jeffrey, over the last almost year, year and a half now I've Been doing a lot of work with rural health organizations. Wonderful. And what I'm, at least what I'm seeing is the need for more support at a minimum, even around strategic planning. What I'm seeing is a lot of these rural organizations, they just don't have the infrastructure to do it all right, Managing the finances, staying on top of the workforce, doing the strategic planning, doing the data analytics. So yeah, my team and I, we just dropped a two day strategic planning workshop course that we're launching next month for rural health organizations. But I'm just curious, anything that you're seeing again from your view of the world, like what are some of these organizations needing just so our listeners can consider it, whether they're in their own businesses or whether they're still, you know, within a health system themselves, what can they do to also help out? Because we know these, these changes are coming from the administration. So any thoughts around what they can do? To start, I mean, I think you've hit the nail on the head with you talking about the sort of providing services and resources for rural providers. Oftentimes I think what we don't understand or acknowledge is that rural health providers, federally qualified community health centers, local health departments, those are safety net providers and even, you know, independent primary care practices. I mean, there's just no way you can not look at some communities across the state of North Carolina and recognize that those individuals are the safety net, those communities. And so oftentimes what happens is they are so busy just treating patients and seeing patients that they don't have the opportunity nor the time nor the bandwidth to be able to be strategic. And so what you're doing, kudos to you and your team for recognizing that that's so important. So I would say those are continuing to be the things that we're seeing. And so as I am looking for ways to partner from an academics point, but also from a workforce point, meaning what I want to do is to train more of those masters of healthcare administration students to see those organizations as viable career paths and being able to go and to be able to support those. Because the skills and competencies that these graduate students can bring to an organization like that, even if they don't go work there two or three years, that is value added for those types of organizations. And so one of the things that I'm trying to be strategic about is really figuring out how do we partner with those organizations even while students are here in graduate school? Because I really feel, Jarvis said, if we expose the students to those types of organizations, many of them will then be intentional about pursuing career trajectory, career paths with those sorts of organizations and then we can really start impacting some of the things around secession planning. It's no different than hospitals. Many of these safety net providers are struggling with who's coming behind me. I'm now at my 30 years and who am I going to find and then come in not only on the clinical side, clearly there's a major concern or major issue from the clinical perspective, but it is also from the administrative and management perspective that I think we've got to start figuring out ways and strategies to get individuals in those spaces. So I think that there are opportunities for your listeners to think through ways to do partnerships with masters of Healthcare administration programs across the country. Please reach out. I'm happy to connect you with some of my colleagues across the country who I know would have an interest in this. I just did a presentation last month with some colleagues that were talking about ways that academia can partner with industry to really kind of look at things like pipeline as well as succession planning, as well as getting early careers into places that traditionally they have not gone. So I think that that's one of the things that is important. And you know, and the other thing is I think it just continues to be thinking through what are strategic partnerships, what are ways that these organizations can. Be. Partners with other types of org. This is not the time to duplicate. This is the time to say, okay, look, you are a subject matter expert in this space. I've got this covered. And it's not about competition, it's about us figuring out how do we then partner together to ensure that our communities are receiving health care. Very well stated, Jeffrey. Let me move you into this next one. And curious to kind of see where you go with this. But. But the reality is we all face bumps in the road as we move through our career paths. So we'd love to just understand was there a pivotal moment or a challenge in your career? What was it? And ultimately, how did that help you shape your leadership approach? Interestingly, mine was very early. I reflect upon this frequently. Mine was early in my career. So when I finished up graduating school, I was extended an opportunity to go into the senior leadership role with the North Carolina Department of Health and Human Services. And so had a team of probably 40 people who were physically in the agency and maybe in 10 of them reported to me directly, but a team of 40. But then thinking about each, we had these county representatives all over the state and so that represented probably 200 people. So. But Jarvis, I entered that at 31, you know, and 31 years old. And so I'll never forget my very first staff meeting going around. And I'm meeting them, and again, this is. This is North Carolina state government. So I'm meeting them, and we're going around, and I'm asking them all these questions about themselves and trying to learn more about who they are. And all of them had a minimum of. Of probably 20 years of experience with the state. So you know what that meant. I was the youngest person on that team, and now I am their leader. And so when I reflect upon that, I was like, I remember really being a little stunned for a period of time, thinking, okay, how do I effectively try to operate and function in this role and be able to really kind of move this particular section and department at this agency forward? Well, that, to me, was something that really kind of was a jolt for me. And then to complicate it even more, state government was also going through some financial difficulties at that point. And so within probably a year or two years, I was having to then deal with reduction in force that the legislature had enacted. And so, to me, I mean, again, in the. The year or so that I have been engaged with these team members, I've built relationships with them. And so now it's about, okay, they're saying to leaders, identify positions that will be eliminated, as opposed to the legislature going through and picking them. They were like, you need to figure out the positions that were eliminated, that needed to be eliminated. And that Jarvis was one of the most difficult things I've ever had to do. So really trying to work through that, trying to ensure that the individuals who were affected by that reduction in force really had a solid game plan once their positions were eliminated from our department. And that really reinforced something that I kind of always knew was something that my parents had always instilled in me. And it's about the importance of relationships and how that should play out in everything that I do. And so that was the same even in this role, even though it was one of those things that was so difficult for me and one of those things that was troubling for me, especially early in my career, and that was required of me to do without much sort of support or other saying, okay, this is a strategy that. That you should take with it. So that's one of the things that, again, it came early in my career, but it's one that has taught me, even in the difficult decisions, you cannot compromise relationship. You can't let go of relationship. It's about being involved and engaged and talking with individuals. Because those folks, they're going home after the job is over as well, or either they're having to figure out and up, pick, pick up the pieces after that position has been eliminated. And how do I ensure that I've handled it in a way where they then understand that they're still valued and they can contribute to an organization that. That's what comes to mind for me. All right. And I'm, I'm curious to ask, just in that the beginning experience there, was there any kind of, I don't know, imposter syndrome or anything? Intimidation of leading. Yeah, leading people so far. Experience. So. So for sure. I mean, again, all of the. All of the above. I mean, you know, when I reflect upon that role, I'll never forget that the director of the agency said to me, you know, you're going to be the youngest assistant director for the agency then. But not telling me that I would be the youngest of the team that I was overseeing, but the youngest assistant director. At that point, there were two men of color who had been in those various roles. And so, yeah, the imposter syndrome, all those various things were playing out. I had never really kind of been in a role where it required me to understand legislative affairs, to be able to build relationships with legislators so that they then can enact legislation that is in favor of the various programs and projects that we have. The organization also, or that agency required me to work with our health plans. We had a managed care product in. So I was meeting with health plan leaders who were flying in from their headquarters into Raleigh to meet with me. And I'm sitting here as a 31 year old, like, okay, this is interesting, but, you know, but what I began to do is to be as clear as I could with what I knew and what I didn't know. I did the research to try to figure that out. I leaned into individuals who served as mentors for me. I leaned into folks who, God, could give me the advice and the perspective. I also leaned into my lived experience, again, having been someone who grew up in rural eastern North Carolina that informed so much of what I was doing. And so, you know, eventually began to kind of build my confidence up and understand that it's something that I'm learning and that's okay. You know, I think every leader needs to reflect upon kind of their growth and ways to then approach their early careers and how they really took the time to figure out what are the strategies that enable them to be effective in those early Roles. And now, trust me, I made decisions. I wish I could made mistakes. I wish I could tell you I didn't, but I made mistakes. But I learned from those mistakes. You know, I would be honest and say, okay, I made the decision, I'll own it. But now come as a stakeholder, as someone who can engage with me to figure out, okay, well, what should the solution or the resolution be? And let me include those individuals in that conversation. So that's one of the major things that I learned early in my career was the importance of engaging, first of all, identifying who my stakeholders are. But then secondly, engaging those stakeholders and then learning to look around the room and say what voice is missing and if that voice is missing, giving audience to that voice and figuring out how do we ensure that that voice is at the table. I'll never forget there were so many times we were making policy decisions about Medicaid patients, but there was never a Medicaid voice at the table. It's like, okay, how do we do this? And we don't have the voice of the individual individuals who are affected by this. And so we were able to then figure out ways to do Medicaid advocacy, or we would get Medicaid advocates to come in and be a voice around. I think that that's important. And it's something that all of us should really look at in our day to day sort of decision making and various meetings and where we're setting policy or we're making decisions. Everyone should look around the table and say, what are the voices that are missing? How do we get that voice added to this particular discussion or engagement? All right, 11 at. Jeffrey, I'm sitting over here like, I bet you have stories for days, for sure. I'm just gonna toss out the whole script and I just want to listen to stories. I'm sorry, I'm probably getting this off time frame here, but no, those are. Yeah, it is. Those are. And so, Jarvis, I'm appreciative of the opportunity to be able to bring that experience to the academic setting and to then give that to students and share that with students and share that with alumni and share that with other faculty so that they then can kind of understand the boots on the ground sort of perspective as to how some things play out. And now, trust me, and you know this from having done the program, we have plenty of faculty who come with a practice based sort of background, but I think it is just important to bring that to the academic setting. Yeah, no, and that's one of the things I enjoyed the most was, you know, meeting with these professors and then to learn like, oh, wait, you, you own a business. Yeah, right. You're doing this for real. You're not just theory. Yeah, right, right, right, right. No, and just with everything you shared there, Jeffrey, I just wanted to add on, you know, it's never a mistake if you're learning from it. So it's just, it's a needed opportunity. But everything you've been sharing has been fantastic. Let me, let me move you to the next one, Jeffrey, because you, you've already highlighted your amazing mother and father that clearly played an influence and everything that, you know, the person you are today. Is there anyone else who just stands out as an influential person in your path? And are there any key lessons that they taught you that our listeners can benefit from as well? There are three individuals who come and let me first say, of course, mom and dad, you and you highlighted that. So thank you for, for that. There's no way I would be who I am without them and how they contributed and some of the core principles that they instilled in us that are far more valuable to me than any money can ever buy. So that clearly mom and dad are at the top of that list. But then there are three other individuals who I feel very fortunate and blessed to have had in my early career in health and human services. And so during my junior year of college, I had the opportunity to intern with the North Carolina Office of Rural Health through, at that point, the governor's office had a summer internship program. So I had the opportunity to work. I got assigned to the Office of Rural Health. And it is in that place, in that experience that the light went on for me, like, oh, this is where I need to be. This is exactly what I want to spend my full time, career, professional career doing. And so in that summer internship, I got an opportunity to work directly with individuals. One is named Denise Levis. She was my direct preceptor. Then the deputy director of the Office of Rural Health was a gentleman by the name of Torlin Wade. And then the director of the Office of Rural Health was a gentleman by the name of Jim Bernstein. Jim and Tork were both former Peace Corps volunteers, and they brought the framework of the Peace Corps to Rural Health. So Jim Bernstein established the first state level office of Rural Health in the country. And so North Carolina was the first to be established in the U.S. and so the framework that Jim brought to that office was about we can do nothing in these rural communities without engaging the community. You know, we can't come in and be the savior. We can't come in and be the fixer and not engage these communities. It's got to be. Is that what I was saying to you earlier? You heard me say it. It's about who are the missing voices. And so that is something that was instilled in me. Jim and Torc taught me that I had such a great experience traveling across the state of North Carolina, going to counties and communities that I never would have stepped foot in that now I got exposure to, to then understand and to hear, give them audience and to hear what they felt their needs were. And then Denise was so critical in helping me to then understand. How do you then translate or evaluate what you're doing in a way that you then can prove the value added for the work that you, that you're then doing? We worked together on a Medicaid demonstration project that allowed us to then support Medicaid patients getting assigned to primary care doctors all across the state of North Carolina. And then seeing as a result of that medical home concept, seeing a reduction in emergency room utilization, which was saving the state money. Well, those three individuals are the ones that come to mind. And I still have relationships with Torlin and Denise. Jim is now deceased. He died about 14, 15 years. No, actually longer than that. 20 years ago, I think Jim died. And so opportunity to have those individuals make deposits into my life have been amazing and it continues on now. Their legacies continue on. And who I was going to say that's the big piece that I took away. Even as you mentioned, Jim, them having passed at this point is their legacy, their impact. It lives on through you. And again, just having you share that insight, hopefully that'll get passed on to many of our listeners as well. So, Jeffrey, thank you. What do you see, you know, when you're looking out across the healthcare landscape today, what do you see as the biggest single challenge facing healthcare leaders right now and then also the biggest opportunity for them? And some of this is going to tie back to what we talked about earlier. I mean, I think the biggest challenge clearly is related to all of the disruption that is currently happening around some of the government funded programs and initiatives. I just think that that continues to be the major challenge that I think healthcare leaders are going to have to, they're going to be facing. And so I think that they're going to find themselves always trying to really kind of determine how it affects their particular organization, whether it's an independent hospital, whether it's a health system, whether it's a primary care practice. And so what, how do you then ensure that you are not financially struggling as a result of some of the. Because, you know, when you think about safety net providers across the country, when you start talking about reduction in Medicaid or Medicare rates, then that's bread and butter for those organizations. And so they're going to have to be strategic in how they can think that through. Again, the opportunities are related to, yes, there may be limitations that come with all those various things, but what are the opportunities for partnership? What are the opportunities to think outside the box and to step back and think strategically? It's about really saying, okay, are there other Jarvis Grays out there that may be able to help us think this through and be as strategic as we can around how we do what we do? And looking at what are those opportunities, what are the ways that you can then identify partners who are just as committed, as supportive of healthcare delivery as the clinical practice is it maybe is an opportunity of seeing that there is a local, not for profit that you should be partnering with to do some things for you related to care coordination or case management or getting patients to. Because one of the social drivers may be related to transportation. And so how do you then partner with that local, not for profit to then address the transportation issue as opposed to feeling like you've got to solve it all on your own, then figuring out, well, who are those partners that we can then work with and get them engaged in how we do what we do and supportive of our mission. Then I think the other thing that healthcare leaders an opportunity is for them to continue to lift up and to remind their organization, their leadership, whether it's their board of trustees, whether it's their team members, is to remind them, you know, what's our purpose, what's our North Star? What is it that we're continuing to do? Because even with all of the changes, with all of the various sort of negative impacts that will happen as a result of legislative changes, there has been no change to patients needing care. And that is the industry that we're in, we're in the industry to get health care to patients. And so, and this is what I remind our students of, if you're coming here to be a health services researcher, get a PhD in health services research or a doctorate in public health or master's in healthcare administration or Bachelor's of Science in Public health. Common theme is that there's a patient in what you're doing. If you're crunching numbers, there's still a patient at the end of those numbers, we can't lose sight of that. And the same thing applies when healthcare leaders are thinking through how do we deal with the morale issues, how do we deal with all those various things. It's important for us to just step back and remind ourselves that there are faces at the end of everything that we're doing. And those are. And if you need to really kind of connect with that, think about your personal experiences, think about your parents shared earlier. My parents, both of my parents declined and helped and I was involved and engaged in caregiving for both of them. And so that informs so much now of how I look at healthcare is having been a caregiver for aging parents. And so I think that figure out ways to kind of tap into what's your core, what it is that drives you and motivates you. And if you identify that it's not that, then you might need to reconsider, consider and think about, you know, well, is this the right industry for me? Because I, I don't think you can solely do this sort of work looking only at the bottom line. No. Oh man, Jeffrey, again there's so many things I would want to touch on but I mean from look looking outside, thinking outside the box for healthcare leaders, the only thing I'll add on to there is, you know, look at the community itself. So I've been connecting a lot of my clients with their local economic development managers, their chambers of commerce, their small businesses who are healthcare based small businesses for everything. The leading with your why. I mean I

still get up at like 4: 43:39

30 in the morning. Not because

I love getting up at 4: 43:42

30, but I know my why. That's how I've organized my day and my life. So I can be productive. I could go to the gym, the gym, be with my family, serve my clients and still be present in as many things as possible. But that, that really speaks to me personally. Leading with your why there's not a day I'm tired. There's not a day I'm really complaining because I'm like I'm on. I'm driven by the purpose, driven by the mission. So again I just hope all that really resonates with our, our listeners. Great. I agree because it's it, it'll get you up every day, I promise. But no, let me, let me move us into our rapid 2 minute drill for the show. Jeffrey. So I'm, I'm just going to go rapid fire. I'm going to shoot these answers at. You or shoot right and you're saying Jeffrey, make it concise. No man, no, no. Just make, make it thoughtful. That's what you're clearly so the first question I have for you Jeffrey, it's a little bit of a two parter or first I love to know what inspires you to do your best and then how do you inspire others to do their best? Best inspires me to do my best are two young men who are part of my life. So they I have a 19 year old and I have a 17 year old and they are curious, they are inquisitive, they are now they've always observed their dad but even more so now where they can then do that. So they are the ones that always inspire me to do my best. I just internally feel that and I think that that is so and so how do I inspire others to do their best? I really challenge individuals to take the time to really kind of look at regardless of what the position title is or regardless of what the role may be, you're gaining transferable skills. You're gaining skills that can be applicable to various aspects of your career journey. And so. So don't dismiss any of that. Look at it. One of the things that I do when students get here for orientation is say to them, start keeping a journal and journaling your various sorts of projects, initiatives, class projects and those various things because I can assure you that you're going to forget some of those. And so what you want to be able to do is as you're starting to market yourself is being able to lift up the things that will make you competitive, that you can lift leverage as you're looking at different sorts of opportunities and applying the things. So I think it's important for folks to realize that the experiences that you're gaining, regardless of the organization or regardless of the position title, those are going to give you, those are valuable and you're adding value to it, but they're also transferable and you'll be able to then utilize that to your advantage. The other piece that I that I encourage folks to do Jarvis's to know that why you just talked about it earlier. I don't think you can. Eventually chasing the sort of paycheck gets exhausting. There's got to be something at your core that is more valuable than a paycheck and a salary. And I think that it's a matter of figuring out what that is and embracing that. That and then being able to understand that all the other stuff will come. Just be able to embrace that. And that I think allows you to be the best person that you can be. Love it. And what's the best piece of career advice that you've ever received? Best piece of career advice I've ever received was to always go into conversations and meetings and interactions with a pen and a notepad, had to make notes and to be ensure to definitely ask questions in those conversations. But the other piece that I got was to never stop being a student. To always, even if I am CEO of whatever, continue to really figure out strategies and ways to continue learning and to continue to expose yourself to things that give you an opportunity to always be inquisitive. And what I was saying earlier about being your best self is really recognizing that I do have transferable skills. And so individuals always reminded me of that is that, you know, Jeffrey, you have transferable skills. You bring a lens to that conversation or that particular role that not everyone can bring to it. Love it. And if you could rewind time knowing what you know now, what's one thing that you do differently in your leadership journey? I would take more vacations. So one thing I think one of the things and I've learned that now in the latter part of my career because I told you earlier, I'm one of those older guys now so I can reflect upon that I would have been more intentional about setting aside vacation time in consistent increments throughout the year because then that would have really set up a path for me that I would have then it would be practice for me now. You know, it's tough, I'm old head. And so it's like, how do you then be intentional about taking vacation time and doing what you need to do? And that's something I would have instituted earlier in my career to then say, yeah Jeffrey, you need to do that. And so that really is about prioritizing your well being. And because then I also it enables you to be as productive and to be as effective in your, in your role. So being able to do that, that's something, that's what comes to mind. I would, if I had the opportunity to do my career over again, I'd be every January 1st, I'd be marking through, okay, what day, what weeks am I going to take for vacation? It's off. It's non negotiable. I'm gone. Regardless of what is going on or regardless of what is coming up. I respect that. I wasn't expecting that answer, but I love it. I love it. Jeffrey, is there a book or podcast or publication that has been crucial to your path as a, as A leader, sure. There are a couple of resources I would then recommend. One that I have just started listening to recently and actually don't think is that old. Anyway, Abrams does a podcast called Assembly Required. I don't know if you're familiar. I just came across a nice. I think it gives you just a very pure formulaic approach to many of the sort of issues and things that are facing our country. So it is not solely about politics. She digs into some other topics and those sorts of things. That has been something that I am enjoying when I'm in a car and can listen. I think that that has informed a lot of what I do. Just because so much of what I do is North Carolina based. The North Carolina Institute of Medicine publishes a lot of resources around different topics that are applicable to North Carolina. That's always a great resource with my work with health administration, the American College of Healthcare Executives, their sort of journal that comes out monthly is another tremendous resource. And the same with the association for University Programs and Health Administration. They have some great resources around that. And then I am a big advocate for finding some good fiction and reading it that is not relevant to anything that I'm dealing with. Turn the believer. Yeah, I mean, get yourself some time to just find you some fiction that's fun to read. I'm reading James now, which is one of the bestsellers that was related. It's like a take on Huckleberry Finn, but it's through the lens of a. A slave, really talking about that. And that has. I found that to be engaging. And then, you know, I. I'm always of the opinion. I love music too. All right. Love it, love it. And you know, when you look forward, you know, over the next 12 months or so, what's something that you're most excited about achieving and most important, how we celebrate those wins? Well, from a personal perspective, I'm excited about my 17 year old. Next year this time he will have graduated from high school. And so we will celebrate that. And that is something I'm very, very proud of. And I referenced that earlier, those two young men things I always look at as this time of the year. We're preparing for the new academic year. And so, so I'll have a new class of students coming through. I'll have my second year students who are returning from their internships. And so 12 months from now, I'm looking at celebrating them beginning that next chapter post graduate school and being able to celebrate that with them and being able to support them in that space. I also think that if we allow ourselves over the next 12 months, we're going to be innovative and creative and think outside the box around some of these challenges that we will be facing in healthcare. And so I look forward to being involved and being at the table to have those sort of discussions and figure those strategies out and work through them and then celebrate them. Those are wins. And I just think as a nation and as a community, we don't do enough of celebrating those wins and we've got to be intentional with doing that. And so that's something that I think all leaders have gotten got to figure out ways to do that is how do you celebrate the wins? I think we can always highlight all of the losses, we can highlight all of the struggles, but every day there's a win that we should be figuring out ways to then celebrate those. And so those are the sorts of things and strategies that I'm hoping to be able to do in the next 12 months. Well, I appreciate you catching that. That's exactly why I slipped that question into this conversation because I know personally I don't do it lot a enough in my business or even with my family sometimes, but I wanted to call it out specifically for exactly what you said. But Jeffrey, man, I. I want to wrap us up and I've officially decided that you, Jeffrey, you put the UNK in unc. So consider yourself. I I think you're officially at UNK status with everything, with all of the great insights that you brought today. But before I wrap this up, Jeffrey, I love just share the best way our listeners can connect with you online and then we'll officially sign off. Sure. I I like that Jarvis, because it's funny, many of the other organizations called me the OG and so you now I'm the I'm the Uncle G ug. I'm sorry, wait, no OG that's it, right. OG that again, I'm showing how old I really am. But so you can rest assured I don't have X or anything else. So you can connect with me either on LinkedIn and just pull me up jefferysims on LinkedIn or feel free to email me at jsims J S I M M S mail Unc Edu please reach out. I'd be happy to have a conversation with you. Perfect. Jeffrey, again, I appreciate you so much. To everyone tuning in, just want to thank you all for choosing the Excellence of Healthcare PODC podcast. I hope I don't even hope. I already know that today's conversation was truly valuable, but just remember this leadership is all about influencing and inspiring others to achieve excellence. So until next time, this is Jarvis and Jeffrey, and we're officially signing off. Jarvis.