046_Building Trust and Partnership for Health Equity with Dr. Philip Alberti

Host: Jarvis T. Gray, The Quality Coaching Co.
Guest: Dr. Philip Alberti, Founding Director, AAMC Center for Health Justice

Episode Summary

In this inspiring and thought-provoking episode, Jarvis T. Gray welcomes Dr. Philip Alberti, a leader in health equity and public health strategy. Dr. Alberti shares his journey from a public health background into the world of academic medicine, emphasizing the importance of community engagement, collaborative leadership, and building trust between healthcare organizations and the communities they serve.

Key discussions include shifting perceptions of organizational trustworthiness, the pivotal role of healthcare in multi-sector partnerships, and practical advice for leaders committed to health equity.

Key Topics & Takeaways

• Leadership as Partnership: Dr. Alberti believes in leading through collaboration and transparency, ensuring all voices are heard in the decision-making process.
• Health Justice & Career Inspiration: His longstanding passion for community-partnered science and public health led him to help build out the AAMC Center for Health Justice.
• Evolving Healthcare Trends: The conversation is shifting from communities needing to trust healthcare to organizations having to prove their trustworthiness through transparency and accountability.
• Building Community Trust: Addressing mistrust isn't just about historical wrongdoing; current harms and misinformation are active challenges. Strategies must be customized to diverse communities.
• Authentic Community Engagement: True impact comes from genuine, locally-relevant partnerships—moving beyond checklists and towards meaningful, sustained dialogue and coordination.
• Personal Growth & Career Lessons: Dr. Alberti reflects on pivotal moments in his career, the value of following one's passion, and lessons from mentors (including his barber father).
• Challenges & Opportunities: Healthcare shouldn’t shoulder the full burden of addressing social determinants of health alone. The opportunity lies in fostering robust, multi-sector partnerships.
• Inspiration & Motivation: Dr. Alberti draws inspiration from collective good, family, and the drive to leave a positive mark for future generations.

Rapid-Fire Insights

• Best Career Advice: Follow your passion and ensure partnerships are mutually beneficial.
• What Would He Change?: He'd consider adding clinical experience (such as a nursing degree) to further inform his public health work.
• Recommended Reading: "Artie the Smarty" — a childhood story that highlights perseverance and impact.

Resources & Links

• AAMC Center for Health Justice: aamc.org
• AAMC CHARGE Collaborative: Open to all interested in health equity; details and signup on the Center’s website.
• Connect with Dr. Philip Alberti:

Is your healthcare organization ready for excellence? Take the Healthcare Excellence Readiness Assessment and find out! Evaluate your leadership, strategy, and operations.

• Start now: Healthcare Excellence Readiness Assessment

Thank you for tuning in! Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast for more insights into achieving healthcare excellence.

New episodes of the "Excellence In Healthcare" podcast are released every Tuesday at 02:00 a.m. (est). Don't miss out on the latest insights and strategies for Mastering Healthcare Excellence.

Transcript

0:55

Hey, healthcare leaders. Welcome back to another episode of the Excellence in Healthcare podcast. I'm your host, Jarvis Gray, and today I am joined by my guest, Mr. Philip Alberti. Philip, are you ready to share with our audience, the healthcare leaders? I am indeed, Jarvis. All right, fantastic. Well, I appreciate this time with you. And you know, Philip, before we get into it, I love to just start on a high note and just simply ask, what's a favorite leadership quote or leadership mindset that guides you and how do you apply it on a daily basis? I think more of a mindset than a quote. About. One of the things that we often talk about in our center for Health justice is that leadership is partnership. That's not to say that there aren't important executive decisions that a leader has to make, but the way in which decisions are made, the way in which you flex that leadership muscle, should be focused on bringing people along, making sure you understand their goals, their desires, making that process as transparent as possible. So when you get to that final endpoint or decision, you've led in that collaborative way. And so that's what we try to do in our center. Right? Well, I love that mindset. And Philip, I don't know if I shared with you when we first connected and I was like, you got to be on my podcast. You know, I found you on LinkedIn. Just maybe some of our shared connections were liking some of your posts. And I've been really following your posts. I mean, just that mindset for health justice and health equity, especially given the climate right now, it stood out to me big time. So I just want to say thank you for the messaging that you're doing. I would love if you could just give us a quick walkthrough of your role, your background, and ultimately what inspired you to get into the work you're doing and impacting our healthcare industry in this way. Sure. So I have been at the association of American Medical colleges for over 13 years now serving as their senior director for health equity research and policy, and then for the last four or five, depending on where you start the clock. I've also been the founding director of our AAMC center for Health Justice. So my background is in public health and social epidemiology, kind of community partnered science and scholarship. That has been my through line, my passion for the last. It's crazy to say, but honestly, 25 years or so and I never thought that I would be in kind of nested in the healthcare industry. I was a civil servant in New York City for a bunch of years working for the public health department there I ended up moving for I guess for love. My then boyfriend, now husband was getting a great job in D.C. and I said I will follow you to D.C. as soon as I find a gig that is focused on this passion of health equity. And it just so happened that the AAMC 1314 years ago was looking to start up a health equity population health science team. And I had the unbelievable good fortune of landing that job and have been there ever since. And so I'm definitely in academic medicine but it's almost as if my role as quasi interloper trying to make sure that the healthcare industry, that the academic medicine, the field of academic medicine is connected to community, is connected to public health and population health initiatives in service of making sure that all communities have that fair and just opportunity to thrive. Academic medicine and healthcare has a huge role to play, but so does every other sector in society. So I think that's also part of the work is right sizing healthcare's role in that multi sector. I love it. I can say first I can resonate with moving for love. I'm originally from south Florida and my wife drug me here to Atlanta kicking and screaming. We've made it home now for about 11 years but I was not trying to move to Atlanta. I'm really intrigued just again that path into the health justice impact even from a public health background. Philip so the work that I do primarily with healthcare organization really does revolve around business strategy, a lot of leadership development and I'm only seeing now and I've been in healthcare pushing 20 years myself, but I'm only seeing now there's more connections into community, community strategy, really realizing that your healthcare organization is going to drive local economics, local policy, local culture in a lot of ways. I'm just curious just with the way health healthcare is evolving just from your view of the world, what's one trend in healthcare that you do believe is a game changer for leaders to understand and just at least kind of have on their radar nowadays? I'll keep in the spirit of how you frame the question. I think we have seen and there are so many shifts, but I think the biggest one that connects to the work that we do is this change in the conversation from building trust between healthcare organizations and community and really putting the onus where it belongs and saying that large powerful entities like academic health centers, like hospitals and health systems, those kinds of organizations have a responsibility to demonstrate they are worthy of community trust. So the shift from kind of co creating trust and maybe asking Communities to get over some of their mistrust and distrust, instead saying, no, it's actually, it's our fault that as a large institution that maybe trust has broken down. And really we have to do the work of behaving in certain ways as an organization in place and space to demonstrate that trustworthiness. So I think that is a really important shift. There are lots of new research projects, national conversations, initiatives. Our center, the very first thing that we produced even before we launched our center in 2021. In 2020, we co created with seven communities across the country our principles of trustworthiness toolkit to really work as an institution with your local community partners to co create the kinds of actions that in a very hyperlocal way would demonstrate that organizational trustworthiness. All right, well, I think that's going to be huge. And I'm saying this just as a black man born and raised in America, you know, in our communities, there's still a lot of mistrust. One of my clients, she runs a mental health program targeted towards black men. And she and I were talking a few days ago and she was telling me about some of the conversations she's having and just getting black, you know, black leaders, black people in our communities to still go into healthcare facilities. Obviously, you know, there's scenes with the history of Tuskegee and all those sorts of, you know, things in the past. But so again, I'm inspired by just how you all are. Just two quick things. It's not just historical. Right. The harms. Yes, there's Tuskegee and Henrietta Lacks and Havasupai genetic study in the Guatemala. We can go on and on and on with kind of those historical examples. But the harms continue today. Right. And I think the other important nuance for healthcare organizations is that there are different paths for miss and distrust. So yes, there's the kind of miss and distrust that is correctly rooted in the kinds of harms that you're talking about. But in the last five, six, seven years or maybe even more, there's another path to mis and distrust, which is through the mis and disinformation of other communities being specifically told, instructed, nudged towards not trusting science, not trusting evidence, not trusting health care. And so that strategy of how an organization demonstrates trustworthiness is going to be very different if they're talking to black and brown communities in Atlanta versus if they're talking to folks that have just said, you know, I don't trust science anymore, not because of harms, but because the folks that I respect and listen to tell me not to trust science anymore. And so I think it's a. It's a complicated issue, but I think it's a real opportunity for health care to lead the way in demonstrating that kind of trustworthiness. All right, And I love to just kind of stay on that thought for one second. Completely off script to the script I provided you. But what's some quick thoughts? Just because I know I'm throwing this one at you, but for healthcare leaders, and I share with you, the season that we're in with the podcast now is all about leadership excellence. I think a big part of that is communicating from a business standpoint, it's marketing. But what are some quick thoughts that healthcare leaders can do to kind of balance that? Because one thing with healthcare is it has to be equitable to everyone to provide the best care, the highest quality care. Any. Any tips that you could share with our audience? Just, you know, to balance the both sides of the stories. You know, one side might be pushing really hard right now, but what can our healthcare leaders who still believe in equity, truth, science, scientific approach, at least to appropriate care, what should they be thinking about right now? You know, the starting point for all of my practice in this space is community engagement. So I think it's both how individual leaders and let's be clear, like there's nothing that I as a person, or you as a person or a CEO as a person is going to do to create new health opportunity for communities on its own. It's the same for a sector, right? There's nothing healthcare can do to kind of achieve health equity on its own. But I think most. What we can all do together is actually start breaking bread in community in very hyperlocal ways. Right? The myths and the stories and the contexts and the preconceived ideas are very specific to very local. If you're a healthcare leader to your catchment area and the diversity within your catchment area is huge, it is not just one community that you need to understand these dynamics about. Right? So figuring out how your organization, how your healthcare entity creates policies and practices that allow for robust, authentic community engagement. So, for example, does your healthcare entity demand that community partners fill out a W9 to get an incentive? Is that a barrier to that kind of engagement? Right. Who in your health care enterprise is responsible for, for building and maintaining community partnerships? Even when there's not a grant or a service learning opportunity? Whose job is it to build and maintain and sustain kind of activatable networks of local community partners? You know, I think the third Thing I'll say is the coordination of this effort across a healthcare entity. When I visit academic health Systems, I often talk about these big, beautiful, gleaming silos of excellence, right? Your research folks have community partnerships, your education folks, your clinical folks, your community health needs assessment and community benefit folks. And no one understands the full landscape of all those partnerships. Who's missing? Who's being overburdened by too many community advisory boards? So I think there's a lot of work that healthcare leaders can do to orient their hospital health system to make the work of authentic community engagement easier, more coordinated, and therefore more important. I love it. I love it. Thank you for kind of flowing with that question. And again, it just makes me think. So for me, I've started my career at Duke Hospital down in Durham, North Carolina, and here in Atlanta, I've worked with Emory and I've had my instances where I did challenge them in those respective roles. And this was many years ago at this point, but being more community involved, community centered again, my perception is that there's so much more happening now than over the history of my 20 years. But sounds like we still got more to go. And again, I'll just keep it simple and say, given the climate, I think it's so important. That's truly why we made the pivot into our leadership excellence. Focus on the podcast here, but let me move into the next question and this hopefully kind of get a little personal. But Phil, we all kind of face the different bumps and highs and lows in our career journeys. Would love to just learn if there was a pivotal moment or a challenge that you faced in your career. And, you know, how did that experience help to shape your approach to leadership overall? Yeah, there are a bunch of bumps, but you said personal, so I'll actually go with a more personal story. So when I decided to go back to grad school many, many years ago, and I often talk about it as like being the single most ignorant decision I had ever made. And I mean that literally. So I'm first generation high school on my dad's side, college, my mom's. There was no model for what getting a PhD should be. And I didn't even know what questions to ask. It really was kind of flying blind. And so I learned along the way about postdocs and the expectation that after you got a Ph.D. you were going to have to be in my own mind, like poor for two, three more years just to publish some papers. I didn't understand the soft money hustle of the research enterprise and kind of you know, you have a job, but you have to get grants to cover the salary for your job. You know, I'm a barber's kid. I had already experienced kind of work. I was not. I did not want to participate in that. So I think, you know, a. The ability to have those kinds of crucial conversations with mentors and partners about this might not be right for me. I'm going to shift gears, change directions. I think that was a really important lesson. I think doing due diligence before embarking on any new project or partnership to really understand as best as I can, kind of the context, the history, the rules of the road before diving in. That was another really important lesson. But I think at the end of the day, the most important lesson was just kind of like, follow. Follow your bliss and follow your passion. Right? I knew that I was in grad school to work in community with community. I thought an academic life was a pathway to get me there, realized that it wasn't, and then said, okay, I'm going to kind of stay true to that passion of mine and make that hard choice to leave academia and go work for the local health department and realize that dream. I love that. Now, of course, I'm feeling bad. I was like, man, I thought I'd research it, but Dr. Philip Alberti, I'll tell the young kids, say, put some respect on your name, but no, I love that. And just connecting that into, again, something our audience could take away. I mean, learning and aligning yourselves with organizations that kind of believe the things you believe are kind of moving in the ways you want to move. I do tell a lot of the younger folks that I get a chance to mentor. I mean, identifying your personal values or the personal mission that you want to be on, and then finding the organizations that align and connect into those same values and then doing the uncommon thing, right? Because folks with PhDs are supposed to be in academia, doing research, not working in organizations. Right? So the other story that I was going to tell, but now that you've kind of framed it in this way, my dad, barber his whole life, loved his work. Like, loved it, was the best, you know, called himself one of the top 10 barbers in the world and really, like, truly believed that and loved going to work and loved the clients and talking to his friends and hanging out all day. And one of the best pieces of advice he ever gave was, you know, you're going to be at work more than any other place during your awake hours. So if, you know, if at any point you start waking up Consistently be like, ugh, I don't want to go. I don't want to go. This is terrible. Like, take your passion elsewhere. And that's easier to do when you're in your teens or your 20s. And it's harder to kind of up and move, certainly now in the current context, in your 30s and 40s. But I think that's also been something that I've carried forward, is that the passion wins out. Right? And you can exercise that passion in any kind of setting, but you need to find that setting, that workplace, that environment that allows that passion to flourish and really supports that work. So that's been another really important, I guess, nugget for me is follow your path. All right? I can resonate with that definitely, 100%. Philip, you know, maybe. I don't know if it'll be your dad or not, but just thinking about the people who have influenced you on your journey, I would love to just, you know, get a sense of who stands out. But most importantly, what's the key lesson that they taught you that our audience members may benefit from as well? I mean, yeah, it's. It's the easy way out, I would say. My dad. That lesson always stands. Stands tall for me, I think. Another one from early in my time at the aamc, you know, there's this phrase that I often say, kind of metrics that matter, and trying to understand at the beginning of any project, initiative, piece of work, whatever it might be, that, yes, you as a leader, have your own ideas about what success looks like. But again, leadership is partnership. And you're going to have to work across many departments or silos or groups to make that. That output or that outcome to realize that. And so understanding from the jump, like what matters to all of your partners in the work, and baking in to whoever you're going to evaluate or incentivize the doing of the work by keeping not just your own goals and priorities in mind, but those of your partners. Whether it's a research project or, you know, breaking ground in a new health care facility, whatever that is, your community is going to have different ideas of important goals and outputs. Your patients, your faculty, your learners, your cfo. Lots of different kind of metrics that matter to people. And so I think I learned that lesson early on in a project, maybe my first year or two at the AAMC about keeping that in mind. And I think that's a lesson that will serve all of us well. I wish you were on a call with me yesterday with some of my small business clients. We were talking about strategic partnerships and I kept in a similar tone was trying to push that thought. But you know, the way you just laid that out, Philip, I would say that that's a life lesson right there because it definitely applies into family and spouses and everything else as well. So the metrics that matter for life on top of that. Yeah, I love it. You know, Philip, when we are looking at our healthcare landscape right now, what do you see potentially as the biggest challenge facing healthcare leaders right now? And, and also on the flip side of that, what do you see as the biggest opportunity? I'm going to leave the current context aside, as we are kind of euphemistically calling it, and just focus in on something that I think is both an opportunity and a challenge, current context notwithstanding. And I think that's the role of health care organizations in addressing health related social needs, or what other folks might call social determinants of health. But I prefer keeping the focus on individual patients and their health related social needs. I think the challenge is that I fear that healthcare leaders, healthcare organizations, feel like they have to do all that work on their own. Right? That they are now responsible for being landlords and building affordable housing or running food pantries and running uber kind of transportation facilities. And that's not the case. And so I think it is an important recognition that I've been so excited about in healthcare, this recognition that the medical care that a person receives is really only about 20% of what makes that person or that person's community healthy. Right. And that all the things in that individual, that family's environment, matter so much more. And so yes, it makes sense that healthcare entities should be one important hub in kind of a network of supports across all of those sectors. But it is not the job of healthcare entities to do this work on their own. They're not expert in it. They don't have the resources to do it. They don't have the time to do it. So I think that's the challenge is at a time when even our federal agencies have been really incentivizing an increased role for healthcare organizations vis a vis health related social needs. I think the opportunity is to really double down on the kinds of again, hyper local, multi sector partnerships creating a system of health that is more than just the health system. Right. So what does it mean for you to make referrals to community based assets if your community doesn't have that asset? Right. Or if the community based organization or asset doesn't have the funds to find new housing or new Transportation or, you know, abate the mold or the pests that are exacerbating your parent, your patient's asthma. So I think really taking a different approach to doing the work that health care is uniquely positioned to do, the screening, the data collection being one hub of many in that system for health, but then also doubling down and maybe taking even more of an effort to build formal multi sector partnerships. So there's really that, that web of support that isn't solely and uniquely reliant on the actions of a healthcare leader or organization. Well, and if it's okay to quickly kind of double down on that same thought again, I was leading one of my community calls last night with my small business clients. One of, one of the folks on the call with us for an example of what you just shared there. She runs an ABA practice for autistic kids. And we're talking about strategic partnerships. And her thought process was very much on other providers and doctors, et cetera. The way we framed it up, Philip, on how she can kind of think outside the box a little bit more, was one defining who's her target, you know, customers, so to speak, but her target patients. And of course, it's the kids who, who need her services. But we also identified the parents of those kids as the target customer. So now if you're the parent of an autistic kid that needs ABA services, what are the things that they need before, during and after they work with the person? And we identify things from, you know, dental services as an example. But also these parents, they are probably gonna be taking their kids to the park. And, you know, these are very active kids. They need to get out and explore. So why not have partnerships with her local city, local parks and rec centers, you know, even like the trampoline parks that are popping up all over the place. So we identified, you know, different potential partnership activities that she had never even considered, but it just required like, it's not all about health care this. Or like you said, if you're a larger hospital building the housing units. There are local real estate experts that would love these opportunities and partnerships. They just need to know they exist. So I, I just, I'm saying all that really again, for our audience. We want to challenge the thought process. That's the whole goal. And that's what I'm seeing a lot of now. It's, you know, small business innovation centers connecting in the healthcare. It's, it's a different game, but it has to be right now. There's no, it's really that focus on like whole person health. Right. And the health of a whole person is more than just our illnesses that need treatment. Right. It's life. It's lifeless community. No, I love that. And thank you for letting me kind of expound on your thought there because that was the conversation I was on just last night. You know, Phillip, great conversation. I love to kind of shift gears. I want to move you into kind of my version of a rapid two minute drill. But I always love to check and just want to see you right ready to rock and roll. Let's do it. Yeah, for sure. All right, perfect. So the next question is a little bit of a two parter. Philip, first I would love to just ask what inspires you to do your best and then have you share with us. How do you inspire others to do their best? You know, my goal, my why has always been the collective good. So I am motivated to do my best because I truly am committed to that goal. Of all communities having that fair opportunity to thrive, I think having a son, I have a nine year old, definitely amps that up. I, like all of us are worried about not just his future, but the future writ large. And so trying to lay some of that foundation for all communities thriving as best that I and our center for Health justice can, that certainly is my motivator. I think the way that I try to motivate and inspire and I don't want to be so egotistical to say that I'm great at it, I think I just try to walk the talk. There's a lot of, you know, I go back to the principles of trustworthiness. Right. So the community members told us in these 10 key behaviors, things like humility and transparency and focus on relationship building and respect and responsibility. And I think I just truly try, not always successful. I truly try to walk that talk in everything we do. Whether it's a podcast like this or running a meeting or giving a talk or building a team, I always err on the side of trying to follow those very same tenets and principles. So great. Fantastic. I have a 11 year old and a 7 year old myself and I can definitely appreciate all of what you said. Leading with your values and principles and being consistent in everything you do. Love that. Philip, what's the best piece of career advice that you've ever received? I feel like I already gave you two of those. So one was kind of the follow the passion from my dad. The second kind of make sure in your engagement your understand what everyone else values. You can bake that in I'm going to leave it with those two. All right, fantastic. This is a little bit of a new question to the show here, so I'm still quasi testing it out. But, Philip, if you could rewind time, knowing what you know, what's one thing that you do differently in your leadership journey? I could go back. I would probably. In addition to the PhD, I would probably have gotten a nursing degree to have some clinical wherewithal I have been. I'll try to leave my own perspective out of it. But even in, like, public health, there's only, like, public health, there's only so far you can advance without a clinical degree, whether or not that makes sense. Maybe that's a topic for another. Another podcast, but I think having been embedded now in academic medicine for so long, being able to have that clinical connection would have been facilitative. All right, perfect. I can appreciate that. My wife actually works at the cdc and we've had similar conversations with her path, so I. I get it personally. Philip, could you recommend a book, a podcast, or a publication that has just been critical for your development as a leader in our healthcare industry? All right, I'm gonna pick something out of left field, and this is actually the same. There was a similar correction on, like, my college essay, and it was a kind of a book that's mattered the most. I'm going to go way back to, like, a preschool book that. That has stuck with me, and I read it to my son, and I still have it. It's called Artie the Smarty, but I'm from Boston, so it's really Artie the Smarty. And the whole story is about this small fish. And all this small fish wanted to do was make a big splash and make an impact. And all of his friends and all of his family said, there's no way you can't do it. You can't do it. And yet already persevered. And I just think that even as a very young kid, 3, 4 years old, reading that book, and I'm not saying that my goal, I'm motivated just to make a big splash, but I am motivated for that collective good. And I am motivated to have as large an impact on community health and health equity as I can. And I know it sounds crazy, but that little children's book has really always resonated and continues to do so, particularly in the current context, when there's a lot of challenges and new obstacles, from language to funding and beyond. And I just keep saying I'm going to forge ahead and do the best work I can and have the biggest impact that I can. I love it and you probably appreciate this as a dad, but you know all of the kids books that when you read it really closely have such an adult theme of inspiration and hope. No, I love that I wrote it down. I'll be checking out already the smarty because we still do story time with my daughter. You know, Philip, looking ahead, would love to just ask what are you most excited about achieving over the next year and how are you planning to celebrate those wins? So I don't know, the time frame might be a little longer because the arc of pop health and health equity is certainly longer than a year as we know. But we just as of, you know, two, three weeks ago, convened the second cohort of our center's multi sector partner group. So we bring together for three year terms, paid three year terms, 10 local and national experts who represent kind of all of the vital conditions for health that we all need to thrive from the arts to healthcare to education to the environment to criminal justice, etc. And we really work with them over three years to make sure the work of the center resonates with sectors beyond health care and public health. And so I know many folks find it daunting, but I find the dance of co creation in kind of an unknown blank space really, really thrilling. So I am excited to see what these 10 experts and the center team kind of grew up over the next one to three years together. So it's kind of the great unknown right now, but that's what I'm looking most forward to. All right, fantastic. And again, I like that very diverse approach to getting the co creation process going. That's going to be really thrilling. Before I let you go and Dr. Philip Alberti, this has been an absolute pleasure. We'd love if you could just share some information with our listeners about the best way that they can connect with you online. But absolutely stay engaged with some of the things you all are co creating. And you know, I want to make sure that our audience has, you know, has your organization on their radar again. I think you know, what you're doing is such an important mission and such important work. So any, any insights, any links or anything that they could follow? For sure. I mean personally you can always find me on LinkedIn. I'm fairly active there. I've gotten rid of many of my other social media accounts, but I'm still on LinkedIn. But our center's webpage is aamchealthjustice.org so that's the way to find us. You can join our AAMC Charge Collaborative, which is a group of about 1700 health equity champions from across the globe. We have lots of kind of special programming and opportunities for that group. There's no barrier to entry. Anyone can join. My mom is a member of charge. You can sign up for our newsletter. We blast out funding opportunities and conference opportunities to now about 5,000, maybe a little more folks across the country. So that's the easiest way to get engaged with the work of the center. Thanks for that opportunity, Jarvis, to put that out. Yeah, no, and I will. You know, when we post the link for you for this episode, I'll be sure to include those links with the show notes. So again our audience can just click the button and plug in. To everyone, I just want to say thank you so much for choosing the Excellence of Healthcare podcast today. We hope this session has just been truly value added to your day. I do want to impart on everybody. Just remember, you know, leadership. It's about influencing, inspiring. Dr. Philip Alberti, I'm sure today, leading with values, staying consistent, staying resilient and persevering even in tough times. That's what we're here to push through this podcast. So we thank you all for being a part of this. Until next time, this is Jarvis and Dr. Philip Alberti and we're officially signing off. Thank you, Jarvis.